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Post by Callisto on Apr 11, 2006 19:36:32 GMT -5
Yeah, and then we could have instructors and divecenters voluntary join our fairplay league ;D
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Post by Argo on Apr 12, 2006 1:52:59 GMT -5
Ok, get ready to call me crazy, but what about if we create a UNION based on the FAIR PLAY idea. No legal systems just a place where dive centers and employees agree to respect a systema and some moral rules. All the members are public and the organization helps and makes public cases of conflict between both parties. Well here ya go.........YOUR CRAZY !! LOL If it was that easy and that all shops would agree to a "Fair Play " System then we wouldn't need an Association of Diving Professional !! No sorry m8 I'm afraid that the only way to make this work is if we are organised and legal........Which is what my lawyer is going over now........how to form a world wide Association of Diving Profesionals with a european based HQ and local offices in other countries that ahere to local working laws. This is what I have in mind and its what will happen........now if anybody thinks they can contribute to this idea they can either PM me or write on the forum. The Association should be open within this following month........
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Post by nitrogendreams on Apr 12, 2006 6:56:19 GMT -5
How will you get the $$$ to do legal actions against dive centers WORLD WIDE?
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Post by Argo on Apr 12, 2006 12:37:20 GMT -5
How will you get the $$$ to do legal actions against dive centers WORLD WIDE? It doesn't always have to be legal action to sort out a problem usualy the threat of e.g. blacklisting would be enough..........As my granddaddy used to say........"more than one way to skin a cat............" Depending on the situation and if the Instr is in fact working legaly then local labour laws would help pay for any problems.........If lawyers are needed then I have a very nice person in the US that has won numerous cases against one of the biggest cert agencies.........(no names mentioned of course ) Fees for lawyer costs would be paid for by membership fees and I also have an enormous amount of lawyers that are also divers and Instructors.... I see No problems there............The only problem I see is getting the instr's to join........If there are enough then this could snow ball and we could really achieve something for the Pro members.........
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Post by pir8 on Apr 13, 2006 7:41:34 GMT -5
Being Euro based, how would that impact States based instructors?
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Post by nitrogendreams on Apr 13, 2006 7:49:47 GMT -5
Nice idea. I would start with something small.... I believe in the FAIR play idea, based on the fact that dive centers managers would put their name in the line when they join. Yes, at the end of the day... people can always f*** things out, but in this way, at least this people will be taken out of the list. Based on the fair play idea, people will get advice where to go, and they will get a serious list of the Good Guys, and the bad guys will be reported in a serious way, with a full report, names, dates, etc. It seems that your idea is more or less, Diving Professionals against Dive Centers.... Don't take me wrong, the idea is nice, but if you want to make it legal... well the task is HUGE, because how are you going to make legal the diving industry in places like Egypt and Thailand (2 of the biggest markets) where almost 90% of diving instructors and DM word without a legal egypcian labor-contract? Difficult to change the industry in that way.... Anyway, I hope it works, I guess I'm more of a dreamer and I still believe in peoples good will.
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Post by Argo on Apr 13, 2006 13:38:13 GMT -5
Being Euro based, how would that impact States based instructors? The same way that the ACC has an impact on the British sub organisation.........By being a member.
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Post by Argo on Apr 13, 2006 13:42:19 GMT -5
It seems that your idea is more or less, Diving Professionals against Dive Centers.... Difficult to change the industry in that way.... Anyway, I hope it works, I guess I'm more of a dreamer and I still believe in peoples good will. The association is in no way meant to be against anyone. It is there to protect the rights of its members, be that in Egypt or any where else for that matter. Also the shops would have the possiblity to report a member for misdemeanours, I see the association as a sort of mediator body between the Dive Shops and our members. Don't take me wrong, the idea is nice, but if you want to make it legal... well the task is HUGE, because how are you going to make legal the diving industry in places like Egypt and Thailand (2 of the biggest markets) where almost 90% of diving instructors and DM word without a legal egypcian labor-contract? As I have said I realize the task is Herculean. Thing is the majority of shops in the countries mentioned are owned by Europeans. The first thing is to make sure that the Instr's are in fact working legally. Then a legally binding contract between the employer and employee is not so much of a problem........
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Post by pir8 on Apr 13, 2006 15:52:36 GMT -5
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by"ACC has an impact on the British sub organisation"
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Post by Callisto on Apr 13, 2006 18:44:48 GMT -5
How about opening a new subcategory called: "known divecenters workconditions" or similar ?
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Post by Argo on Apr 14, 2006 0:28:42 GMT -5
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by"ACC has an impact on the British sub organisation" Sorry M8 my mistake should have explained it more: OK firstly there was a typo in the post it should read ADC (Association of Diving Contractors). The HQ for this organisation is in the US ADC Int. and has sub branches around the world e.g ADC UK. Each Sub branch is responsible to the HQ is so-far as the Head office supports the actions of the local offices. Any major changes made by the Int organisation are automatically incoorperated in the Sub Branches, if this is allowed by local labour laws. I hope now that I have made myself clear? For more info on the ADC go to www.adc-int.org/ and for info about the British branch go to www.adc-uk.info . This is just an example of the way that it is possible to in-corperate Int organisations with local branches.........
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Post by pir8 on Apr 14, 2006 11:59:58 GMT -5
Are you talking about joining the commercial divers organization or creating a compleatly new one?
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Post by Argo on Apr 15, 2006 15:58:47 GMT -5
Are you talking about joining the commercial divers organization or creating a compleatly new one? If you read the first post on this thread that answers your question BUT just to you time NO I am not thinking of joining a commercial divers association. Its not worth the trouble at the moment!! I am starting OUR Association of Diving Proffesionals
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Post by pir8 on Apr 15, 2006 21:55:42 GMT -5
If you read the first post on this thread that answers your question BUT just to you time NO I am not thinking of joining a commercial divers association. Its not worth the trouble at the moment!! I am starting OUR Association of Diving Proffesionals [/quote] I do sort of remember that from before but I wasn't sure where you were going.
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Andi
Goby
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Posts: 23
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Post by Andi on May 9, 2006 19:29:45 GMT -5
I'd love to get involved in that... don't think it's possible though - I'm german, living in Canada. If I'm going back to EU one day you can bet your ass I'll be in!!!
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Post by LSDeep on May 9, 2006 21:27:42 GMT -5
I'd love to get involved in that... don't think it's possible though - I'm german, living in Canada. If I'm going back to EU one day you can bet your ass I'll be in!!! you know, even if it is not my brainchild so to say, the amazing thing is that everybody anounces that he thinks it is not possible but would like to get involved one day. maybe its because diveprofessionals around the world still have a way to comfortable live and are overpaid despite their complaints... if people start to really care about the general situation in the scuba industry and their own situation within it, they might will decide one day that it is just simply time to do something about it! change never comes easy and it is hard to get off your butt and start something while you might have a halfway decent job - it will change! - nothing is forever. i love also ppl that say there is nothing to do about it, because of local laws.... etc. the policies start with your certification agency not local laws! local laws might help or make it harder, the rules and standards and policies of your cert. agency work worldwide! if you (we) start to influence them change will be worldwide. sure it is great to see queensland, australia taking care of stuff on a local level, if we force our cert agencies to do so, we dont need local law. i am amazed all the time how people sit like lemmings and say "there is nothing i can do, because.....". face it, for the majority of agencies youre the majority "golden goose", you pay combined more than any divestores in yearly membership fees, you do the work to certify ppl and this way make more money for cert agencies..... so the "there is nothing i can do...." is a bunch of lame bullsh*t! it might needs you to get of your butt and spend a couple more hours a month communicating and getting things together, it might cause some outspoken individuals to have jobproblems (what a bommer, dont we need anyway a second job to meet ends?) .... anyway, not doing anything and just complain means to me your live is way to peachy and it should stay that way. there are decent jobs out there (few and far between), you should have an interest that every single one of them is like that! you paid thousands of dollars to get where you are in your live, the "highly desireable, high responsebility professional" - obviously you dont like to get paid like one.
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Andi
Goby
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Posts: 23
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Post by Andi on May 9, 2006 22:45:41 GMT -5
I'd love to get involved in that... don't think it's possible though - I'm german, living in Canada. If I'm going back to EU one day you can bet your ass I'll be in!!! you know, even if it is not my brainchild so to say, the amazing thing is that everybody anounces that he thinks it is not possible but would like to get involved one day. maybe its because diveprofessionals around the world still have a way to comfortable live and are overpaid despite their complaints... if people start to really care about the general situation in the scuba industry and their own situation within it, they might will decide one day that it is just simply time to do something about it! change never comes easy and it is hard to get off your butt and start something while you might have a halfway decent job - it will change! - nothing is forever. i love also ppl that say there is nothing to do about it, because of local laws.... etc. the policies start with your certification agency not local laws! local laws might help or make it harder, the rules and standards and policies of your cert. agency work worldwide! if you (we) start to influence them change will be worldwide. sure it is great to see queensland, australia taking care of stuff on a local level, if we force our cert agencies to do so, we dont need local law. i am amazed all the time how people sit like lemmings and say "there is nothing i can do, because.....". face it, for the majority of agencies youre the majority "golden goose", you pay combined more than any divestores in yearly membership fees, you do the work to certify ppl and this way make more money for cert agencies..... so the "there is nothing i can do...." is a bunch of lame bullsh*t! it might needs you to get of your butt and spend a couple more hours a month communicating and getting things together, it might cause some outspoken individuals to have jobproblems (what a bommer, dont we need anyway a second job to meet ends?) .... anyway, not doing anything and just complain means to me your live is way to peachy and it should stay that way. there are decent jobs out there (few and far between), you should have an interest that every single one of them is like that! you paid thousands of dollars to get where you are in your live, the "highly desireable, high responsebility professional" - obviously you dont like to get paid like one. I don't see why I have to justify... but I'll do it: Reasons I can't do anything right now, in this moment: I can't work as an instructor anymore as I am suffering from dysbaric osteoporosis (due to too many dives with a lot of idiots). My diving career is on hold. I immigrated to Canada a couple of weeks ago, I don't have a job, and I don't get any financial support from anybody. I have to pay a fortune on lawyer fees for the permanent resident card, and I am not allowed to work or volunteer here. Right now I don't even have the money to buy a f***g instructor insurance to maybe work here in Canada. So, please don't be too upset when I said I'd do s.th. in the future... Have to figure out a life somehow before!
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Post by tekmac on May 9, 2006 22:55:33 GMT -5
you know, even if it is not my brainchild so to say, the amazing thing is that everybody anounces that he thinks it is not possible but would like to get involved one day. maybe its because diveprofessionals around the world still have a way to comfortable live and are overpaid despite their complaints... if people start to really care about the general situation in the scuba industry and their own situation within it, they might will decide one day that it is just simply time to do something about it! change never comes easy and it is hard to get off your butt and start something while you might have a halfway decent job - it will change! - nothing is forever. i love also ppl that say there is nothing to do about it, because of local laws.... etc. the policies start with your certification agency not local laws! local laws might help or make it harder, the rules and standards and policies of your cert. agency work worldwide! if you (we) start to influence them change will be worldwide. sure it is great to see queensland, australia taking care of stuff on a local level, if we force our cert agencies to do so, we dont need local law. i am amazed all the time how people sit like lemmings and say "there is nothing i can do, because.....". face it, for the majority of agencies youre the majority "golden goose", you pay combined more than any divestores in yearly membership fees, you do the work to certify ppl and this way make more money for cert agencies..... so the "there is nothing i can do...." is a bunch of lame bullsh*t! it might needs you to get of your butt and spend a couple more hours a month communicating and getting things together, it might cause some outspoken individuals to have jobproblems (what a bommer, dont we need anyway a second job to meet ends?) .... anyway, not doing anything and just complain means to me your live is way to peachy and it should stay that way. there are decent jobs out there (few and far between), you should have an interest that every single one of them is like that! you paid thousands of dollars to get where you are in your live, the "highly desireable, high responsebility professional" - obviously you dont like to get paid like one. I don't see why I have to justify... but I'll do it: Reasons I can't do anything right now, in this moment: I can't work as an instructor anymore as I am suffering from dysbaric osteoporosis (due to too many dives with a lot of idiots). My diving career is on hold. I immigrated to Canada a couple of weeks ago, I don't have a job, and I don't get any financial support from anybody. I have to pay a fortune on lawyer fees for the permanent resident card, and I am not allowed to work or volunteer here. Right now I don't even have the money to buy a f***g instructor insurance to maybe work here in Canada. So, please don't be too upset when I said I'd do s.th. in the future... Have to figure out a life somehow before! I don't think Lsdeep tried in any way to "attack" you in person. As I know him, it is one of his periodically ventings. We know, you don't have to justify anything. I am glad you did, it might give others a push to think about their reasons. Yours are more then understandable. I am sure, Argo who is the main force behind it, would anyway be happy about any help or support you can offer. So would possibly Lsdeep, he is also majorly "obsessed" with this thematic.
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Andi
Goby
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Posts: 23
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Post by Andi on May 9, 2006 23:01:32 GMT -5
Oh, hey! Didn't mean to upset anybody... Just to clarify one or the other thing. I do enjoy diveproinfo very much, and I have nothing but the highest respect for people who put so much effort into our cause! I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear!
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Post by LSDeep on May 10, 2006 2:40:36 GMT -5
Oh, hey! Didn't mean to upset anybody... Just to clarify one or the other thing. I do enjoy diveproinfo very much, and I have nothing but the highest respect for people who put so much effort into our cause! I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear! you didnt! anyway, get yourself sorted out and than you might have the time (we dont want your money ;D - yet) to do what you want to - cause more trouble and uproar in the diving community by getting behind the "cause" (means the argo - union - project) ;D
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