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Post by Argo on Mar 13, 2006 4:20:10 GMT -5
Great post from PUMA - thanks for the free market talk - a concept that seems to escape most people on this board (particularely the so called moderators) .... but what about "The Happy Meals" for those starving instructors? ? Hmm by the sounds of it your a dive shop owner that thinks its OK to exploit Dive Pros and thereby increase your profit.........Free market is OK if you are selling a product, here it is not a product its the person supplying the product namely the DivePro. Therefore to exploit the supplier for your own measly gains at the risk of customers lifes (cheap instr's) is in my opinion a despicable act !! As to your comment "(particularely the so called moderators) ...." If you cannot keep a civil tongue in your head and keep the discussion on a pro level and not get personal then don't bother posting at all.......... I could say more but I'm not going to let myself get dragged down to your level of thinking............
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Post by Thomas on Mar 13, 2006 9:50:01 GMT -5
Well instructorgirl maybe you are "too naive". Or maybe its just me that doesn't believe in good people...i bet that most of that money for the instrocturs in need of help would just disapear. I totaly agree with the puma's post...i think it's up to every pro to make their own price...a DC can not operate without professinals...the problem is that if i ask for 50 there is always someone wiling to do the same job for 25 even if he dosent get enough money to eat...... Although i think a Union could be helpful...the problem is that usualy unions are backed up buy laws and we (note that i am refering here to recreational divers i am not even talking about professionals) seem to be, some how, omited by most countrys laws and regulations...
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Post by Argo on Mar 13, 2006 11:43:15 GMT -5
Well instructorgirl maybe you are "too naive". Or maybe its just me that doesn't believe in good people...i bet that most of that money for the instrocturs in need of help would just disapear.... I think, Thomas, that in this case it is you that is naive. It would not be my intention to go to all the trouble to organise a union only to find that the members fees were used for something else! Although i think a Union could be helpful...the problem is that usualy unions are backed up buy laws and we (note that i am refering here to recreational divers i am not even talking about professionals) seem to be, some how, omited by most countrys laws and regulations... There were no unions backed by laws in the beggining it was brought about by a small group of people that saw that their group, as workers, were being abused! If nobody does anything it will always remain the same.....As for Pros working for less than each other thats something the union can eventually change..... There are many people out there, shop owners included that want a good name with their customers and a DC thats certified as being in the "White List" as far as not exploiting its workers thereby making sure that quality (safety) standards are kept.........this then ensures that the customer is happy, the shop owner is happy and his staff are happy too!
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Post by LSDeep on Mar 13, 2006 12:03:34 GMT -5
Well instructorgirl maybe you are "too naive". Or maybe its just me that doesn't believe in good people...i bet that most of that money for the instrocturs in need of help would just disapear.... I think, Thomas, that in this case it is you that is naive. It would not be my intention to go to all the trouble to organise a union only to find that the members fees were used for something else! Although i think a Union could be helpful...the problem is that usualy unions are backed up buy laws and we (note that i am refering here to recreational divers i am not even talking about professionals) seem to be, some how, omited by most countrys laws and regulations... There were no unions backed by laws in the beggining it was brought about by a small group of people that saw that their group, as workers, were being abused! If nobody does anything it will always remain the same.....As for Pros working for less than each other thats something the union can eventually change..... There are many people out there, shop owners included that want a good name with their customers and a DC thats certified as being in the "White List" as far as not exploiting its workers thereby making sure that quality (safety) standards are kept.........this then ensures that the customer is happy, the shop owner is happy and his staff are happy too! i think he is going ab out the 1 buck in a fund per month idea and not the union.
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Post by pir8 on Mar 13, 2006 19:06:02 GMT -5
Idealy a union is a great thing until you take into account the human factor. Somebody is going to want to get rich off of it. It's human nature. Yes instructorgirl I would say you are too naive. Being a member of a union in my day job makes me realize that it would never work in this industry. Most unions exist to protect the incompetant worker and tend to ignore the good worker because they really don't tend to get in trouble.
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Post by instructorgirl on Mar 13, 2006 21:05:50 GMT -5
"unions exist to protect the incompetant worker and tend to ignore the good worker because they really don't tend to get in trouble"
I THINK THIS IS THE SMARTEST I HAVE READ ON THIS BOARD SO FAR! ....what is discussed in hundreds of postings, pir8 brings to the point in a few words!
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jckent
Barracuda
Plan for the worst,Hope for the best!
Posts: 85
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Post by jckent on Mar 14, 2006 2:53:52 GMT -5
What a load of crap!!!!!!
Unions are there to give individuals a group voice.
bit like say local MP's are there for incompetent citizens as good citizens dont get into trouble.
a group voice shouts louder than one. a union will represent many people from many companies.
I work for a company in UK that is always trying to bring in dubious rules, if only I complained, they may well ignore just me, but "the union" representing all 350 technicians complain "they listen!!!".
some people need to have experience of the real world.before they take on some misguilded, illinformed opinion of other people.
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jckent
Barracuda
Plan for the worst,Hope for the best!
Posts: 85
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Post by jckent on Mar 14, 2006 3:00:43 GMT -5
paying for poorly treated instructors is a poor idea. we have all been somewhere that treats instructors crap.like any job ,if you dont like it- leave, we should bemaking more instructors aware its just a job, putting more emphasise on dive shop owners to give their staff a fair deal....
But its a problem that wont go away. there are always more guliable young instructors that will put up with poor pay & conditions. maybe Padi & other training agencies should considor putting this into their training. i do with DM's
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Post by Argo on Mar 14, 2006 5:05:56 GMT -5
There are many ways in which a union can work.....I think we all have to get away from the classical, we want or else ..sort of mental behavior. This Union (Association is the right word) ADP = Association of Diving Pro's can do what, up til now nobody has been able to do. That is to give a platform for the working Instructors and other Pro's in our employment field.......Its not just a question of "we want more money!" No it's the whole thing around working as a Diving Pro, minimum wage, Upholding Standards, Work Breaks etc, etc , etc.......Now for those of you that are happy with the way it is, all I can say is.........Shame on you! You are not pro's, your temp workers, subsidizing your employers business cos without you working for them they would surely go under. Perhaps rightly so...........? If you take the tourism industry as a whole there are so many businesses out there that could not exist if they had to pay a proper wage.........This is largely to do with travel organisers / whoesalers that dictate the prices they are willing to pay to the hotel and airlines (Charters). This is will not change! The only thing we as an association can do is look after our members in that we try to find solutions for the kind of problems they are experiencing........
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Post by Argo on Mar 14, 2006 5:11:52 GMT -5
"unions exist to protect the incompetant worker and tend to ignore the good worker because they really don't tend to get in trouble" I THINK THIS IS THE SMARTEST I HAVE READ ON THIS BOARD SO FAR! ....what is discussed in hundreds of postings, pir8 brings to the point in a few words! This is crap! Unions do not exist to protect the incompetant worker...........I see you have been either reading too many thrillers or watching too many films! Unions can become corrupt yes, and this can happen when there is big money involved and / or the organisers start to get back handers from the employers to keep the advantage on the side of the employers! I see the Association of Diving Pro's more as a tool that could keep the equilibrium (balance) between a healthy business and the employee.........
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Post by Thomas on Mar 14, 2006 6:56:28 GMT -5
Argo I think the term "association" sounds more like it! I also agree that something must be done...and as you say if no one does anything things will just keep as they are... which is not a good thing! But....there is always a "but"....an association like this would have to be very well reputated, in order for the DC's to be intrested in contracting ppl from this association...making a decent DC prefer to contract an afiliated pro and pay a littel bit more than keep exploiting someone else. What could happen would be that ppl afiliated would get no jobs only because they were a part of an association that claims for rights... And honestly i cant see how this could be done.... I dont know if i explained myself well...but i've done my best
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Post by Argo on Mar 14, 2006 8:21:44 GMT -5
Thomas, I know exactly what you mean.......The Dive Shop owners have to be made aware that we are not out to skin them alive...........Everybody wants to live!! I believe that if we can show ourselves as representing quality, and go down this path towards what both the Instr (Asso member) and the dive shop owner wants, namely more customers and better wages and conditions for the Asso Member. There are a lot of crappy shops out there (read the Bad guys section). It would only be a matter of putting ourselves in the right light as the ones that are actually looking after the divers and their children.........We have to sell the idea that we as instructors are in fact worth more than the "Cheaper Version" because the customers would not come back..........If you all follow what I'm saying.......I don't want to put too much here as most of the certifying agencies read this forum as well........... I'm going to try and see if a closed forum room can be made for those that want to take part in an informal discussion about this subject!
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Post by LSDeep on Mar 14, 2006 9:24:13 GMT -5
ok, following the thread i think i have to write some comments at this point. there seem to be some misconceptions about what a union / association should or could do. first of all, i would like to know, how some ppl get the idea, that a union is only good for the incompetent worker. if you ever worked in a unionized business you would be aware that a union is not there to protect the "idiots" but to create acceptable general working conditions, which might incl. minimum wages, overtime pay and regulated working hours before overtime pay, days off, vacation, insurance, health regulations, protection against getting fired for no reason and much more. hardly problems of incompetent people. how comes that teachers, government workers and many others are unionized? are they all incompetent or maybe clever enough to know, that a "big voice" gets you rights you would be never able to get on your own? please dont hang yourself up on the term union / association, call it club or interestgroup or whatever you like! next would be the often used argument, "...but the cost of living varies from country to country widely....". now, that might be true, did you ever try to use this argument with your respective cert. agency when it comes to paying your membership fees? like: "i work in thailand and get paid very little, so thats why i just pay 50% of my instr / dm fees for this period" or your liability insurance??? sorry cant pay you $500 this time cause i work in the 3rd world and thats why i should pay half? they will laugh in your face! now, granted, in some regions liability insurance is not required, but it would be potential suicide not to have it, just in case sth is happen. same is to be said about dive courses, beside the (partially) extreme differences in cost of living, dive courses seem to cost pretty much the same worldwide. the dc doesnt say, because its so much cheaper to do business here we charge only half for the courses. the next misconception seems to be, that many here believe this association would deal with problems on a shop to shop basis. that would be tedious at best and do nothing for most people. to get some effective changes in order this would be happen on a certification agency level. changes there wont be happen because joe smith says, that needs to be changed, but when a big group says, the status quo is bs and needs to be changed! after all, your cert. agency takes a $150 (give or take a bit) "membership fee" from you each year, as a member you can expect that also your interests are represented! but the usual modus operandi this days is - you are our "member" and make money for us and if you have a problem regarding your job thats between you and your employer! now that sounds really reasonable!? more so in the many cases where the dc is associated with the same cert agency as you are. did you ever ask yourself, why you pay a yearly fee for the "privilege" to be underpaid, have no representation but are allowed to make money for them??? if you ever had another job outside the diving industry, did you pay also a monthly / yearly fee to work for this company??? well, so far for now, maybe that gives you some food for thoughts. interested to hear them!
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Post by pir8 on Mar 16, 2006 19:27:38 GMT -5
I think my shortness of statements make me missunderstood. Unions are a necessary evil. That being said I am a union member and would have it no other way. There is no way I would consider going to the managements side of my industry. They put your Dive Shop villians to shame for plotting to cause workers problems. That will not make it any easier to create a Dive Instructor Union. In general the human factor makes it very hard to start with what could really be a noble endevor. Sorry but I tend to be sceptical.
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Post by Callisto on Mar 18, 2006 13:49:38 GMT -5
Can somebody please explain what sarcasm has to do with creating a union ?
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Post by pir8 on Mar 18, 2006 21:28:12 GMT -5
Who was being sarcastic. Starting a union in this industry would be a herculean task. Too many international boundaries to cross.
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Post by pilaurice on Mar 19, 2006 5:55:30 GMT -5
go to the address below and you will see how australians regulate the watersports industry around the whitsunday islands, it is a good basis to write a scuba charter. the main problem i forsee is with currencies and different wages per country, thailand generally pays a percentage ofv the course cost. www.wcbia.com/wage-award/ WCBIA%20interim%20AWARD%2009Jun05.pdf
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Post by pir8 on Mar 19, 2006 7:42:09 GMT -5
Am I to understand that in Austrailia dive instructors are part of the maritime union?
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Post by Argo on Mar 21, 2006 2:50:30 GMT -5
Am I to understand that in Austrailia dive instructors are part of the maritime union? In some parts of Australia yes they are..........on one of the posts you can find more info regarding this fact and also that the regional government demands that the DC signs an agreement confiming minimum wages and conditions, otherwise the DC is not any more able to get the state licence................This is how it should be........
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Post by Argo on Mar 21, 2006 2:51:43 GMT -5
go to the address below and you will see how australians regulate the watersports industry around the whitsunday islands, it is a good basis to write a scuba charter. the main problem i forsee is with currencies and different wages per country, thailand generally pays a percentage ofv the course cost. www.wcbia.com/wage-award/ WCBIA%20interim%20AWARD%2009Jun05.pdf This may be so as regards Thailand BUT the prices charged in every country for diving is basicly the same all over.......
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