knotical
Puffer
To err is inevitable.
Posts: 36
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Post by knotical on Dec 1, 2004 12:25:49 GMT -5
Occasionally we probably all see a strange (to us) certification card, and we have to decide if we should allow the holder to dive / buy equipment / get air fills, etc. - Does anyone know a good resource to determine if a c-card is valid, or should be accepted? A partial suggestion: If the agency is a member of WRSTC, that should be OK. See: www.wrstc.com/agency.phpBut that leaves out some like BSAC and WASI/NASE. And there are lots of other agencies. See for example the list of over 150 agencies at: www.blue-explorers.com/links_extra_en.htm - How should we handle someone with one of these other cards? - Is having them do a checkout dive enough? There are many national organizations who have issued cards. - Are their cards valid outside the particular country of issue? If their country’s card is a WUF (CMAS) card, the answer is probably yes, but . . . - What should you do if a diver brings in a card from an agency that at one time was valid, but is now historic? - Would the size of an agency be a measure of acceptability? - Does anybody know how to determine the size of an agency? PADI is probably the largest. - If we base size on some logical metric like new Open Water scuba certifications issued each year, who is second, third, etc? - Assuming you decide the agency is valid, how do you know whether the card is valid? Presumably you haven’t seen that agency’s card before. - Is a picture on the card enough? - What if there isn’t even a picture? - What’s the strangest card you’ve seen? - Will knotical please stop asking questions?  |
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Post by manta on Dec 1, 2004 13:41:10 GMT -5
There are other, new agencies too - GUE and...um...well...the other want I wanted to name escapes me. I'd guess the fact that they're listed with WRSTC would be OK...but I've seen old cards without pictures. If it's been a while since they've been diving then we require a refresher. Period. There's been talk from a few instructors here that are thinking about forming a new agency - I don't think it will HAPPEN - but they want to get back to the basics and reinforce safety. Logbooks are also a good indicator - but they can be forged...we always offer to stamp then with our shop stamp - those are sort of hard to forge  - when I dive somewhere that's got a stamp, I always try to use it. Don't worry about asking too many questions - the dumb one is the one not asked -k |
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san
Puffer
Dive ever - work never!
Posts: 34
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Post by san on Dec 2, 2004 4:05:55 GMT -5
I think that is not important the diving certification or the diving agencies, but the diver himself (mmm how clever I am :  . So, let me explain, why a PADI certificated diver should be a good diver? Because PADI is a big organization? I think that every diver when come to dive have to show his documents (valid certifications for current year) and diving logbook, and then go for a checkout dive. On the checkout dive you see a lot of things! I saw a lot of PADI divers that dive terrible, destroing corrals and be a public denger for themselves and for others and I also saw terrible CMAS divers!!! So, PADI is the largest agency and CMAS I think the oldest, but they can't asure you the quality of every diver! In my experience, as much one dive as better diver he/she is, and it doesn't metter which diver card the person own! In the other hand we have people who are not talented for diving and they will be allways bad divers (and vice-versa)! So for me the best indicator is a check dive, because it doesn't metter where and how you learn something but if you know something or not! |
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Post by tekmac on Dec 2, 2004 9:33:34 GMT -5
Well, the agency or card is seldom a indicator for a good or bad diver!Our policy is that if you don't have a logged and verified dive within the last 3 month, you do a refresher.You don't have a dive ever in our kind of environment you do a refresher/environ. orientation.If it is an agency we never heard of you take the full scuba review course and then it will be decided by the instructor if the card/book you gave us is of a dive cert. agency or maybe your driverslicense.
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Post by LSDeep on Dec 2, 2004 10:06:49 GMT -5
- How should we handle someone with one of these other cards? - Is having them do a checkout dive enough? i guess it is one option, i kind of like mac's concept regarding this point. it kind of makes sense There are many national organizations who have issued cards. - Are their cards valid outside the particular country of issue? generally, as long as they went through a certification course, there is no national limitation. well then we have the quebec syndrom and some other countries also (like france), that require you to have a national cert in top of your international. but i think you shouldnt penelize the client for bad advise, he got in choosing his diveschool. otherwise i refer to the "mac - principle" again. If their country’s card is a WUF (CMAS) card, the answer is probably yes, but . . . - What should you do if a diver brings in a card from an agency that at one time was valid, but is now historic? well some cert agencies disappeared or merged. generally this person is still certified and often quite experienced. well back to logbooks and check out. - Would the size of an agency be a measure of acceptability? never ever! - Does anybody know how to determine the size of an agency? PADI is probably the largest. - If we base size on some logical metric like new Open Water scuba certifications issued each year, who is second, third, etc? most agencies sitting on their numbers like they are state secrets, others inflate their numbers. so that doesnt work. maybe we can by their tax returns?? or the size of their offices?  - Assuming you decide the agency is valid, how do you know whether the card is valid? cert's usually dont expire Presumably you haven’t seen that agency’s card before. - Is a picture on the card enough? - What if there isn’t even a picture? i usually let them show me a photo id along with the card if there is no picture, or it is so old that not sure we looking at the same person. most cards make themself identifiable as dive cert. - What’s the strangest card you’ve seen? russian navy diver certification - Will knotical please stop asking questions? ;D, just kidding! |
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Post by LSDeep on Dec 2, 2004 10:10:40 GMT -5
just as an afterthought i dont think it really needs yet another cert. agency! we should spend our time and efforts to make the existing ones better..... ...then again maybe we do need one, with people from all the agency and just create our own agency without faults! and then again we will see a board in the future b***ing about it.  |
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Post by scubadave on Dec 2, 2004 11:50:22 GMT -5
I agree with the check-out dives and required refreshers as the best idea. I would also suggest if you don't know the certification agency to photocopy the card and keep that with the waivers they signed. We required everyone who had been diving recently to do checkout dives, and anyone who hadn't been diving for a long time to do complete refreshers. When you do this some people get really offended and pissed off, and it's usually the ones that put up the biggest fight that need the refresher most of all.
One thing to really watch is people certified in Turkey. As I've heard from several Turkish people you can buy counterfeits of almost anything there. They told me that most people don't even have real driver's liscences, they just buy one when they want to drive. I had a few times where we had Turkish people come with all their certification cards and legitimate logbooks, stamped and signed, and everything, and before we even get in the water for a refresher or checkout dive we figure out, and they admit, that they've never dove before in their lives.
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Post by LSDeep on Dec 2, 2004 12:07:17 GMT -5
in regards to scubadave:
that was also a common practice in kenia.
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san
Puffer
Dive ever - work never!
Posts: 34
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Post by san on Dec 3, 2004 5:06:11 GMT -5
This is something off topic, but I want to share it with you  When I was on a fish farm in Crete I met a guy from Romania working there. when he came to work he didn't know anything about diving, I don't know if he knew either swimming... But he need a job so the first day they gave him a scuba gear and he went to dive... not knowing anything about diving in the next years he broke all rules and standards that we know, but he survive ;D After some years he took a book and start to readi about diving and then he realize what is diving and why he didn't feel good sometimes  . he told me some things that he did that I couldn't believe that is possible to survive or not to feel cosequences... Still today he is not a certified diver but he is working on the same fish farm GL man! and sorry again for the off topic |
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Post by Lloyd on Dec 3, 2004 6:08:51 GMT -5
For me, a log book is far better indicator than cert cards, also given that the cert card is from a 'generally' accepted agency.
What if you own a dive shop in England and someone who is an instructor wants to dive would you just let them without question? What if they have never dived in cold water, do you ask them to do a dry suit intro or specialty type course?
Not diving for 3 months and I have to do a refresher, you gotta be kidding!
Our dive center closes over the monsoon season and all the instructors, dm's and staff get to chill out and do other things. This is good for everybody it helps to avoid burnout and get everyone excited about diving in the new season. Do we all have to do refreshers now? what a crock...
Lloyd
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Post by scubadave on Dec 3, 2004 12:46:31 GMT -5
In response to lloyd. You and your staff in england know each others skills and abilities, so a refresher amongst you guys I doubt is really necessary, but the first time you get back in the water after 3 months, don't you do a little refreshing of your own skills just o make sure everything is habit again?
But as a professional I'm sure you've seen people come in with high-level cert's, lots of dives logged, and then you take them out and they're a nightmare. I know of very few instructors that have not had this experience. So I think it is vry acceptable for a place that I go diving with, that has never seen me in the water before, to require me to do a quick refresher with them to make sure I live up to their standards. And i think it is very unprofessional for someone to have a little hissy fit at them because their overblown ego is damaged at the mere question of their abilities, when all the place is doing is trying to be as safe as they can be. I've seen people just certified open water, with only 4 dives, that have much better bouyancy control than some divemasters and instructors I've seen with hundreds of dives.
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Post by LLoyd on Dec 3, 2004 13:50:32 GMT -5
I dont dive in England, have done it and dont wish to do it again!
But a "refresfer" dive in what terms?
If you want to call it a "refresher dive" in the sense I do not take students straight in on my first dive back, I dont try out new gear or try a deco stage dive, yeah sure.
Do you honestly believe you 'forget' your skills and ability after 3 months!
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Post by scubadave on Dec 3, 2004 16:54:59 GMT -5
If you 'forget' your skills, then you have to re-learn them, and that's courses you need to take. I don't think you forget them after 3 months, especially after doing it hundreds or thousands of times. In the situation you described, experienced divers not diving for 3 months and then all getting back together I mean that you would 'refresh' your skills, and from you saying you don't try out new gear, don't take out students, and so on, it sounds like you are refreshing yourself, reaquanting yourslef with the water. I've gone back and forth from cold water drysuit diving to warm water where I don't even use a wetsuit. My first dive is never with students, or leading other divers, as while I dive I feel around for all my equipment, do mask removal and so on (it takes a few times to get use to the freezing water on my face after diving wam water, and finding my octopus with gloves on is a little more difficult). I would even do this if I'd been 3 months without diving and I'm returning to the same place. From what you said, it sounds like you'd probably do the same.
What I'm saying is that if a dive company you choose to dive with is really concerned with safety, standards, and reef protection, chooses to make any diver that they are unfamiliar with, no matter how many c-cards they have, to do a refresher, even in a pool, before they will let this unfamiliar diver dive with them, we as professionals should respect their concern and not give them any grief over it. There are several dive resorts around the globe that do this, and they're usually the ones that have no accidents and do the best job of preserving the reef. They're usually in pristine places that the rest of us dream we could dive at, and these rules are the reason they will remain pristine for years to come. If every dive center did this the reefs around the world would be in much better shape and we'd be contributing to the sustainability of the environment, the sport, and effectively our jobs. And if we teach our students that refreshers are good things that may be expected anywhere they go, and not just a crock of sh*t, then we'd be teaching them much more responsibility. We need to practice what we preach, if we say to our students, "yeah, you need a refresher, but I don't," it will mean nothing to them. I know there is a big difference between 1000 dives and 4 dives, but a new diver won't always see that, and we always need to lead by example.
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