Who are the guys posting here?

[torquemada]

I can't get rid of the impression that most negative reviews of dive operations are written by a bunch of losers who live in the illusion that the dive business is some kind of paid vacation.

The diving industry is business just like any other industry, too. And you will hardly be able to avoid work completely. Furthermore you should be aware that you cannot expect the same working conditions in a 3rd world country as you are used to in Europe or the US. If this is what you are looking for, you should stay in your old job.

The way how highly reputated dive centers and some of the few successful operations in this business are criticized on this board shows that most people here seem to live in a dream world. On the other hand operations which are unlikely to survive next season due to their incompetence are highly recommended here. Obviously the people who post here have a completely wrong picture.

Unfortunately these illusory views are true for the majority of dive instructors. If you read the statistics you know that 90% of all instructors return to their former jobs after one year, because they had unrealistic illusions about what to expect.

What is true for the non-diving business is true for the dive business, too. If you don't have the necessary commitment, and business orientation, you will not make it long, neither at home nor abroad as a dive instructor.
The same rules apply in both places.

My recommendation: Face reality! Wake up and stop dreaming about making a living out of your hobby.

[tekmac]

your views are interesting at least - sound like a lot of business owners in the dive industry i met! well, to speak of myself and some other people on this board i know personally i dont think you talking to dreamers here. you got at least one padi cd here, several instructor trainer of another big trainingagency, masterinstructors and so on. talking for at least 4 ppl here you looking at between 10 and 17 years fulltime in the business two of them with highly sucessfull operations. which are not on the board here yet because its agreed on that this is not a advertising page. and i am shure some people are frustrated about former employers, cant say that for me- that where just the a-holes along the way. where i dont mind to protect other people making the same mistakes.
i manage ( for some relly nice guys ) a big chain in the caribbean now and thanks for your opinion that we want survive next season but we just invested another U$ 750k
in new boats and more shops, so maybe we should sell to you to beware the ruin?
you might not like whats going on here - but hell boy, you aint gonna stop it!!!

[LSDeep]

Torquemada said:

I can't get rid of the impression that most negative reviews of dive operations are written by a bunch of losers who live in the illusion that the dive business is some kind of paid vacation. >>well, well wouldn´t that be nice, but i am shure most of us realise that it is a job in the first place - pretty serious one also since we are daily in charge of human lifes - and yes it should be fun too. <<

The diving industry is business just like any other industry, too. And you will hardly be able to avoid work completely. Furthermore you should be aware that you cannot expect the same working conditions in a 3rd world country as you are used to in Europe or the US. If this is what you are looking for, you should stay in your old job. >> well spoken there my friend. so since it is a business like every other industry its about time it get paid like that and employees have rights like that also, i still think i would like to get a union going powerful enough to get the black sheeps in this industry out of business. and yes indeed there are employers out there in the - what you choose to call 3rd world that pay fair and treat their staff fair and no we are not looking for a cushy officejob back in europe or the mighty old US<<

The way how highly reputated dive centers and some of the few successful operations in this business are criticized on this board shows that most people here seem to live in a dream world. On the other hand operations which are unlikely to survive next season due to their incompetence are highly recommended here. Obviously the people who post here have a completely wrong picture. >>i would rather say it shows how different this industry is - that this kind of conditions are still flying, thanks for making my point there, indeed some of this dive centers had a really bad reputation before - just now people getting upset that it might be openly accessible to the public. if you run a fair business you want have to worry i guess and your companies that are unlikely to survive next season are all since several years in business, if you would take the time to check with their respective certification agencies. if you try to make a point do your homework first my friend. the one who has the wrong picture seems to be you! <<

Unfortunately these illusory views are true for the majority of dive instructors. If you read the statistics you know that 90% of all instructors return to their former jobs after one year, because they had unrealistic illusions about what to expect. >> well i dont blame a lot of people if you work for the bad guys in this business you burn out early. i just bit my tongue and finally ended up in the right circles but hey get paid below minimum wages, supposed to work 10 hrs plus in a lot of places, who needs it really - geez i am back in my old business and own 2 diveshops as a partner in the phillipines, just we dont need staff because they all stay!! we just need some when we expand, amazing isnt it? and yes i am shure some instructors have the "unrealistic" illusion, when they get into it that it is a fair regulated business - like teaching sport in school in europe for example<<

What is true for the non-diving business is true for the dive business, too. If you don't have the necessary commitment, and business orientation, you will not make it long, neither at home nor abroad as a dive instructor.
The same rules apply in both places. >> true and the amazing thing is how many people are sucessful, right? and have the right orientation not to work for little loosers and wanna be business owners for next to nothing and hopefully one day i will be able to say that not at last due to this site some businesses had to close. and for the businesses with the right commitment and orientation, i am shure they will find committed staff<<

My recommendation: Face reality! Wake up and stop dreaming about making a living out of your hobby. >> so let me return your recommendation: FACE REALITY! WAKE UP AND STOP DREAMING!!!!

well i think i said pretty much everything in the quotation i had to say about this topic. i am assuming you are one of our beloved dominican shop owners due to the spanish nickname. let me tall you one thing as long as conditions in the dominican are still what i have seen in six weeks of vacation and diving there in all shops, my goal is acomplished when no foreign instructor will work there! but then again thats everybodies own decision and we just try to get pro´s together to provide background info for informed decisions.

have a nice day, sincerely yours
LSDEEP

[scubadave]

I agree with this author that many dive instructors expect their work to be a paid vacation. I have worked as a dive instructor for several years. I have also been the base leader for large companies, managing over 15 full-time instructors and running a large-scale dive operation. I have seen many of these instructors come and go, and have been happy to fire them.

Where this author is completely wrong, though, is saying that the dive industry is a business just like any other. It is not. When you cut corners in so many businesses the worst that could happen is a few disgruntled customers. When you cut corners in the diving industry, you get injuries and deaths. There are many very bad companies out there where their top priority is money at any means necessary, which works for non-diving businesses; but in diving the top priority must be safety and standards, and money after that.

Working for companies that have work-for-your- certification programs, I have seen horrible divers, ones that had no sense of direction, no snense of safe ascent rates, and that continuously smashed coral by accident, certified as instructors just so the business could fire them and then charge them the cost of all the training in exchange for their certifications.

I have seen businesses consistently break RSTC standards for a buck. I've seen them doing full open water courses in a day or two, and certifying students that panic when a little water enters their mask. I have reported these businesses to the scuba agencies they operate under, and yet reading stories from this board, I can see that at least one of them has not changed.

I think this message board is a very good thing for those of us in the industry that want to work, and I mean really WORK, at reputable dive centers, where we won't get fired for failing a student that is terrified of the water or telling the boss that we cannot work 20 hours a day as it is too dangerous to our own health and that of our students to get only a couple hours of sleep a night.

Of course there will be some postings from those lazy instructors that feel burned by companies expecting them to actually work. The intelligent members on this board can see right through the whinings of those arrogant instructors that expect paid vacation.

[mermaid]

Who the hell said that 3rd world is an excuse for comitting the same *** errors again (see past times)? Who said, that in a 3rd world country (I suppose in the same time 1st holiday world country!!!) every kind of human misstreating and bad behaviour is allowed? As a US/European you are a "visitor" in these countries. You have staff often coming from US/Europe, most of the guests come from 1st world countries....so what kind of argument are you bringing up? What exactly is the excuse, if you let guide a group of 20 holiday divers by a OWD with some few logged dives on a wreck in 40m??? I wonder about the logic in your arguments!

[Lekker]

;D ;D ;D
The nickname says it all, Torquemada !!!!!!!!

I quote the Encarta Encyclopedia :

Torquemada, Tomás de
(tmäs´ d tôrkmä´thä) , 1420–98, Spanish churchman and inquisitor. A Dominican, he became confessor to Ferdinand II and Isabella I and in 1483 was appointed inquisitor general of Castile and Aragón, charged with the centralization of the Spanish Inquisition. He was largely instrumental in bringing about the expulsion of the Jews in 1492. His great authority was contested by colleagues and was diminished in some measure by the pope, but he remained preeminent until his death. TEXT

[Lekker]

Sorry, the end of the article was cut :

"Torquemada owes his reputation for cruelty to the harsh rules of procedure that he devised for the Inquisition and to the rigor with which he had them enforced "

[Masoin]

Disillusioned I might be but when I work for a diveshop I always try to find a balance between my managers decire to mazimise profits and my duty to my students to ensure that they have a safe and complete course. Having had servral arguments with privious managers all over the world I think it is important that between us pro's we tell eachother with diveshops have that correct balance between profits and service.

[yuget]

Only the truth can hurt. This reply to this board is just a proof that the board is working well. More instructors will read it and save some traveling money to go to places like Dominican Republic to work for Neptuno and the likes.
Surely In over 10 years working in diving I have seen a lot of Instructor that should have stayed clear of the job, like in any profession. But the lies and abuses of some dive shop owners is outrageous. Next employee of Neptuno & the likes may be treated with a bit more courtesy. If not, people like me and the others that post on this bulletin will make their best to take you out of business because as the "bad instructors", you should have stayed away from the diving business.

[sandybottom]

Who the hell is this guy???
I think he is the disilusioned one! I guess when some dive opperators think its ok to sit on their big fat.... and think that by being able to open up a dive business in the tropics or paradise" that they don't have to worK. I have also found that guys like this inherited the money from usually some push over familly member be they are even too lazy to load a boat or teach students themselves. As a satff instructor i have worked my but off to be able to teach in some of the best dive opperations around. I have also found few wingnuts that i would be more than happy to warm other dive professionals about, (yes "Dive Professionals" we do exist. ) so they don't waste the time and energy i have . Good luck with your dive business, your going to need it!!

[Gregs]

I like the candid attitude. Your points are valid and the figures correct. However, a 3rd world or developing country does not excuse poor practice and safety. The dive industry is one of the youngest in the world, SCUBA just over 50 years. This doesn't mean that we need to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Most of the people here I think you would find are trying very hard to make a positive influence on the industry. I guess I would count as one of the dreamers, after 6 and 1/2 years in the weeds. I deserve to dream, so do the 16 guys I work with, we are trying very hard to make it a better and more profitable industry. In short your either part of the problem or part of the solution. The choice is with the individual, dreamer, owner, instructor or customer.

[Sharki]

I'm defently a dreamer, an Instructor and mybe soon an owner....
To top that, I'm a part of this problem since a few years now!!! ;D
Never give up and try to live your dream!

[Hungry Tiger]

Hi guys,

I think Torquemada has a point and the same apply for all people who responded as well.
However, I think everybody here is focusing on their own opinion/beliefs and being carried away from the central point.

I'm not Torquemada's laywer but I feel people are writing what they think Torquemada meant (though I also do not agree with everything that was said) and then getting into their own conclusions on that.

I think people should be aware that diving industry is not for paid holidays, dive shops/operations have to survive as business, so we instructor can go there and get a job. On the other hand this does not give them the right to breach the employment and safety standards/regulations.

As everything in life, if you loose the focus on what has to be done, things will go wrong. So, though it doesn't happen always in real life, be reasonable. That's valid at same weight for instructors and shop owners.

I think this discussion is quite benefitial but don't get too emotive about it, otherwise your input has not value.

Safe and fun diving for everybody!

[ninjadoc47]

Hi all, this is a really good topic. But I have a few things to discuss, that happen here STATESIDE. I was a independent instructor while looking for perm. work to leave town that I'm currently residing, and I WANTED TO WORK MY BUTT OFF, its doing what I love, so here's the scenarios.

The first shop would take no less than 3 weeks to pay me(the headquarters was only one state up). The 2d would not only limit the amount of students I can teach( which I could agree with as a new OWSI) but allow not adverstising of other specialties, one of the owners felt Adv o/w teaches you enough skills to do deep ,night, nav dives. But the other owner advertises a specialty that requires alot more gear($200 camera or $900 drysuit hmmm) .

The last shop kept setting up classes and then cancelling out on me at the last minute.
How can one be motivated to work with terms like this . alot of money is spent to get to our level(college level fees usually) . I agree if you thought you were going to just sit around in red shorts, flip flops and shades, stay the hell away. Finally, I had a few leads, But out of the 4 offers I had, only one had benefits, and sadly the pay was a tad bit low( and I'm frugal ).

I'm a hyperbaric medical tech also, so I'm not just a putz whining, I do see both sides of the argument.The reason I was given
why many operations don't have "bennies', as told by one of my CD's from a well known scuba school , is it is hard to get covered. AS a health care provider and a 10
year (combat proven) veteran, the scuba safety record is better than many other'standard' industries. So I find that a hard pill to swallow.

There may never be a easy solution , but may be if more shops wanted quality, as well as more schools really hit hard on the reality of the business( mine's did which is why I did have a backup plan (medicine, currently doing nursing school to be nurse instead of just a tech(more $$$) I will still teach ,
and if I'm lucky , I applied for the DMT position at DAN, I can still do teaching on both sides(recreational and medical).

So I say this, please all, we are the 'PROS', the public comes to us for guidance, if we can't have a good professional dialogue, we will most certainly not be able to objectively inform our students. I still keep a good relationship with 2 of the shops I taught out of because I know, 1st they are regular people who I like , but sometimes you can't always work with friends or family.
I even was encourged to come back to the 1st shop I left, But I'll stay independent, Idon't mind taking time with my students, or netWORKING. God bless

[flotsam]

hey...

How many dive operators started their business when dreaming lazily on a beach somewhere?

How many dive operators have had to learn their business from the bottom up?

The dive operator needs to work with instructors.

How many instructors started diving when dreaming lazily on a beach somewhere?

How many instructors have had to learn their craft from the bottom up?

The instructors need to work with dive operators.
Got the link yet?

Dive operators ...you're either good or bad at your job.
If you are good, you put profit, customer service, safety and employees first.

If you are bad you put profit first, and everything else goes out of the window

Dive instructors...if you are good you put your wages, operator, customer service safety and fellow employees first.

If you are bad you put your money first and everything else goes out of the window.

WAkE UP..start talking..start listening..be proactive...and get integrity.

[ninjadoc]

Hi, I totally agree. I feel if the instructor and center, go into the first meeting of "what can we do together to
better serve our customers/students, and each other. Instead of "what can you do for me?, I STRONGLY feel that diving can gain the popularity of the big 3(baseball,basketball, and football). HOW?,many may say, if there are any former competetive level athletes that are now dive pros. A few big selling points I hit home is
1)The NON competetive nature, you don't have to be picked to play, no coach to yell at you 2) you can do this
well into your older years without bathing in ben gay or wear funny pants and try to hit a little ball with a metal rod. Need I go on?, So just keep in mind ,

We can all make this the new phenomeno like golf,tennis and soccer, and like I said the WHOLE family can do this .

[dude]

Man,

So let me understand, a emplyee who complains is a looser, right? And all the dive op are managed by perfect people?

I think that the "bad guys" page is a great thing now before treating a young DM like a slave or messing with safety you will think at two times man.
There's a word to sum-up what you wanna be "master"
be a cool manager and you wouldn't be on the board

[Argo]

Well, time for my two cents worth........
having run and owned my own dive business for the better part of 25 yrs its safe to say that some of what the first post says is correct, "dive industry is just like any other industry" there will always be those that try to cut corners and jepadise their workers in the name of profit......... Our job here, as I see it, is to warn the pro's about the diveshops and schools that are in this only for money (at cost to instructors and customers). Of course there are bad instructors out there, the same as in every industry.
As long as we see such posts from shop owners I know that we are achieving our goal. Some of them might not like the truth but its the way it has to be.............