knotical
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To err is inevitable.
Posts: 36
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Post by knotical on Nov 30, 2004 13:04:52 GMT -5
Quebec passed a law (effective 2002) requiring recreational divers to re-certify every 3 years, and instructors every year.
Is this a good or bad idea? How’s it been working? Is any place else doing this?
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Post by manta on Nov 30, 2004 13:39:32 GMT -5
What puzzles me is how will they police it? Divers aren't registered with the govenrment - unless that's the next step....how will they know if someone goes to Cozumel to dive or to vacation?
So much for a self-regulting industry. This can't be a harbinger of good things to come, IMNSHO.
-k
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Post by scubadave on Nov 30, 2004 14:53:17 GMT -5
I don't see how it could be regulated outside of the province, either. You go anywhere else and they just ask to see your c-card, not if you've been recertified. A lot of dive operations make refreshers mandatory before you dive with them, depending on how long it has been since you've been diving, and some that are really concerned with safety and reef protection make everyone, even instructors, do refreshers even if they were diving last week. I think that's the best way to go, as I have seen some horrible divers with instructor certification. But of any place to make this recertification law I'm not surprised it's Quebec. I worked at a resort that got tons of Quebec divers every week and I ended up having to report so many shops and instructors from Quebec to PADI for their ignorance of standards. I don't know why this was so rampant in Quebec, but I got people that were scared to death of mask clearing and who had never done an open water dive certified as PADI scuba diver; some people certified to full open water having never been outside a pool, being told that because the pool was 60 feet deep (and where this 60 foot pool is, I don't know) that counted as open water; instructors with no technical training thinking it's great to dive to 160 feet even when told their limit is 130 and then having temper tantrums when we cancel their dives (even though they were told this would happen beforehand if they broke depth limits); referral students that were so happy we had smaller class sizes when all we were doing was following standards, because apparently they came from classes that far exceeded the maximum instructor:student ratio; and so on and so on. It's weird, but I've never had to report so many standard violations as I had to with people from Quebec. Maybe PADI knows this and asked the government there to help them out, who knows?
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knotical
Puffer
To err is inevitable.
Posts: 36
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Post by knotical on Nov 30, 2004 15:06:24 GMT -5
The law only applies if you want to dive in Quebec, and the dive shops are expected to enforce it by checking c-cards.
The law apparently came about because of some diver deaths a few years back.
PADI put out a letter on the issue in which they said basically that much of their input to the debate on the law was ignored.
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san
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Dive ever - work never!
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Post by san on Dec 1, 2004 2:56:32 GMT -5
I don't understand that?!? Do you have to re-certify your driving licence every 3 years in Quebec? And how many people die in car accidents every day?!! And I have to say even a few things about PADI standards (I'm CMAS certified diver ;D) because PADI do a lot of things just because of money, but OK I can agree with some of them because when I see some "instant" divers and instructors, and even dive centers I learn to dive in a club, not center, and we didn't have the course one week but as long as it take to be sure that everybody can dive safely! And for me this is the best standard!
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Post by LSDeep on Dec 1, 2004 6:34:21 GMT -5
But of any place to make this recertification law I'm not surprised it's Quebec. I worked at a resort that got tons of Quebec divers every week and I ended up having to report so many shops and instructors from Quebec to PADI for their ignorance of standards. I don't know why this was so rampant in Quebec, but I got people that were scared to death of mask clearing and who had never done an open water dive certified as PADI scuba diver; some people certified to full open water having never been outside a pool, being told that because the pool was 60 feet deep (and where this 60 foot pool is, I don't know) that counted as open water; instructors with no technical training thinking it's great to dive to 160 feet even when told their limit is 130 and then having temper tantrums when we cancel their dives (even though they were told this would happen beforehand if they broke depth limits); referral students that were so happy we had smaller class sizes when all we were doing was following standards, because apparently they came from classes that far exceeded the maximum instructor:student ratio; and so on and so on. seems to be a french problem in general ;D ;D. you have to know also that padicert. wasnt accepted in france till recent and as a padi instr. you couldnt teach on french soil, not that i ever wanted, but.... i find the idea great about recert. every year as an instr. does that mean i spend every year in top of outrageous insurance, member and so on fees now also roughly U$1000 to get recertified? guess its time to apply for social wellfare then, since nothing of my yearly income will be left.
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knotical
Puffer
To err is inevitable.
Posts: 36
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Post by knotical on Dec 1, 2004 8:28:27 GMT -5
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Post by scubadave on Dec 1, 2004 11:37:45 GMT -5
This is just a reply to San about his complaint of PADI standards and thinking CMAS is so much better. It's not like I'm a big defender of PADI or any other agency, but I just don't understand the superiority some people feel of one agency over another, especially from CMAS instructors. I got open water certified NAUI, trained as an SSI instructor and then crossed over to PADI, and having worked as an instructor for over 4 years now, most of that time alongside CMAS instructors. I realize that there is good and bad in any agency, but the bad mainly narrows down to the instructor. From my experience with CMAS they seem to have no standards. One instructor would say to get the 1* rating after a resort course they needed to do 4 dives with a CMAS instructor, but no skills on the dives, another would say they needed to do skills on the 4 dives, and then they would all seem to say, "oh, but 2 dives is fine." I would also get CMAS 1* divers from France on vacation that had never been outside a pool and the CMAS instructor woud say that it is a valid cert. for 1*, just a different 1*, yet the cards are the same. Add to that, CMAS doesn't seem to keep a record of who it actually certifies, so 2 bad things can happen: 1. if you lose your card and log book you're no longer certified, and 2. counterfeit cards could abound, because there is no way of confirming with CMAS if a certification is valid. And it was always CMAS divers of all levels that would be resting their fin tips on the reef and touching the coral. I saw one CMAS instructor that had no clue of how to do a giant stride entry and would use her hands more than her fins to propel herself, pulling herself along the coral. Seeing all of this, though, I also saw many excellent CMAS instructors and learned of the high medical standards and gruelling physical tests divers must endure in France, if it is done right. It seems CMAS is more of the Navy mentality where only the toughest and strongest can make it and PADI is of the philosophy that it is easy and almost anyone comfortable with the water can do it. So it really comes down to which philosophy you hold, and how good an instructor you are or how good an instructor you had certify you, because standards are nothing unless the instructor and the agency are enforcing them.
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Post by Lloyd on Dec 3, 2004 6:29:52 GMT -5
People who criticise padi always seem to have the same reasons about safety, skills, knowledge etc but never any real unbiased scientific knowledge to back it up. Or is there some, where?
According to figures from DAN, in their anual report 2003, England has the highest rate of reported dive 'incidents' per capita, registered divers etc. Why? Maybe its got to do with conditions, under trained divers doing what they shouldn't, or the instructors, who knows??
I think club based training is inherently open to variations in standards and diver knowledge and ability variations. Does this make it bad, I think thats not for me to say I am not diving consistently in France or the UK to make a qualified judgement, I just take it into consideration when taking divers for more advanced courses.
To me its like people who hate Microsoft, simply because they are the biggest and for some simply because they are American. All I know is that billions of people can use computers every day with very little real problems, I can get a job anywhere in the world programming for the windows enviroment (like padi), to me that makes them ok...
chao chao
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Post by LSDeep on Dec 3, 2004 7:13:59 GMT -5
... And it was always CMAS divers of all levels that would be resting their fin tips on the reef and touching the coral. I saw one CMAS instructor that had no clue of how to do a giant stride entry and would use her hands more than her fins to propel herself, pulling herself along the coral... thats called staying in touch with nature dude ;D ;D ;D
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Post by LSDeep on Dec 3, 2004 7:27:56 GMT -5
in regards to loyds post: ...I think club based training is inherently open to variations in standards and diver knowledge and ability variations. Does this make it bad, I think thats not for me to say I am not diving consistently in France or the UK to make a qualified judgement, I just take it into consideration when taking divers for more advanced courses... there is nothing wrong with club based training and i have to say most bsac divers i dive with (on a weekly base - yeah i have to deal with my island monkeys EVERY WEEK ;D ;D ;D)<-- hope all my brit divers read this line ;D;D;D - they will kill me - are far better trained then people of "commercial" training agencies. it seldom has to do with the training agency at all, usually its the instructors attitude and concept what divetraining should involve. ...To me its like people who hate Microsoft, simply because they are the biggest and for some simply because they are American. All I know is that billions of people can use computers every day with very little real problems, I can get a job anywhere in the world programming for the windows enviroment (like padi), to me that makes them ok... i use microsoft ( because its hard to get around and have the same options in software) but i still have to say bill gates is a bloody thief, who ripped of the mac os, crippled it, put problems into it and sells it to you for an inflated price (well you dont have to buy it, just look in the rite places and it will come to you a lot cheaper ;D ;D). so granted he is a great sales person, he would have made a fortune also selling used cars.... so why pushing computer technology back in the stoneage?
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san
Puffer
Dive ever - work never!
Posts: 34
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Post by san on Dec 6, 2004 5:05:38 GMT -5
Scubadave, take it easy and read again my post. Where did I say that CMAS is better than any other agency?!? Now we are off topic but I have to reply even to Lloyd ;D ...........According to figures from DAN, in their anual report 2003, England has the highest rate of reported dive 'incidents' per capita, registered divers etc. Why? Maybe its got to do with conditions, under trained divers doing what they shouldn't, or the instructors, who knows??........... This is a good question, why? Your answers may be correct... But do we know which course these divers made (PADI, CMAS, NAUI...) and where? Maybe these divers made a course in some warm tropic place (and than this is probably PADI, because is the biggest ) and when they come home and dive in a totaly different conditions, they are not so good as they think they are and accidents happend... It would be interesting to know which agency have most injured divers! I search a little on Dan Europe web and look at the statistics about injuries but they never put to which agencys the injured divers belong. If we could know this information and divide with the number of certified divers in those agencies we could say if one is better than another because they have the smallest % of injured divers. But I suppose that we can't know this information so we can just believe that one agency and standard is better than another! Am I right? So as far for me is this discusson closed and you can see my point of view in the topic "PADI what the..." or something like that bye
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