|
Post by matt71 on Aug 7, 2005 3:53:42 GMT -5
well,i am watching this board for a while and just went to job ads (not that i need one) for the dive industry to see whats going on outside this little board here - and got pissed off once again. dont get me wrong, i love diving and it would be my first choice for a job at any time! right now i just have a (not closer specified) well paid goverment job - because i just got p****d off over the last 10+ years! do we really need this "need instr (dm) now! call or send c.v." sh*t??? sure, there are ppl (like me ages ago) that are enthusiastic about it. lets face it, its a job (granted a really nice one and very rewarding) with a lot of responsebility and long hours that gets paid like sh*t! in many places you make more money flipping burgers! now, i dont say you should get rich with it (hey, the owners usually do!), but you should be able to make a living!! consider just what you spend to your owsi level to be able to teach, your yearly cost (incl. insurance, equipment, travel and so on) we are not even talking about pension funds and the works! who the hell thinks about that anyway at this point - it becomes an issue later. is it really - in your mind - ok, that cert agencies raking in fees (and ongoing course and update dues) at (compared to your lousy income) outragous rates? why the hell you take this bull****? you love it that much to get pushed around? is there actually anybody out there - that is as p*ssed of as i am about this situation??? there where attempts before to get a union going, and fall asleep again and still everybody is complaining! get it guys (and girls ) nothing will be happen, as long as you dont make yourself heard!!! there are some ppl on this board toying with this idea again, why dont let them know, what you think and support them for the better of all (got to admit i am one of them). it works for commercial divers on an international level and actually changed things, so it could for us. the great thing is - with the amount of ppl actually certified on pro levels, we have lawyers and everything else readily available! well think about it - and plz post your own views on it here. if the interest is there - we can pull it off!! or you really want to live on $250 or less a week for the rest of your life without any benefits. cert. agencies want cover your interests - if you dont make yourself heard!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Jerome Smeets on Aug 8, 2005 13:37:11 GMT -5
Altought not yet pro, I'm in Can offer traduction services (French-English-Spanish)
|
|
viking
Barracuda
burn the desk and get wet.
Posts: 77
|
Post by viking on Aug 9, 2005 7:30:04 GMT -5
Good idea i'm up for it.
|
|
|
Post by Sharki on Aug 9, 2005 15:48:56 GMT -5
I'm interested. Tell me more!
|
|
|
Post by LSDeep on Aug 9, 2005 20:54:02 GMT -5
hi matt if you check there was talk about that several times on this board. we are (talking about ppl on this board) generally interested. just needs some work and a decent workable concept. anyway - contact me, if you need webspace, we will be happy to provide it for you.
|
|
|
Post by tekmac on Aug 11, 2005 1:04:03 GMT -5
First of all, I love the idea. It would be about time that something like that actually shapes up - with people behind it that are willing to put the time into it (even over hard beginnings) to just stick with it and push it forward! I think that's the main problem with most other attempts sofar to pull something like that of! There where people trying it before - see www.iudp.org - but obviously abandoned the project. At least the website looks like nothing happen this days. One of the big problems I see is to get the people to go along with it and actually support it (not talking money here) but morally and with potential actions! It seems in the recreational dive community, that everybody tries to get a job and gives a d**n about everything else. sad! Just as a first thought along the lines (I am not a lawyer or claim to have to much ideas about law in general) - PADI is an american business, so wouldn't fall all of it's "licensees under american laws if you forget about petty bulls*it lawsuits? so wouldn't american labor laws apply to the instructors and other employees of a divecenter under the umbrella of PADI Americas? If so, tell me if I'm wrong, wouldn't there be a foothold for a major class action lawsuit as is? Looking at a website: www.legal-database.com/laborlaw.htmI see potential lawsuits to the hundreds!!! And with being able to do that (Big Tobacco eventually went belly up) isn't there a way to force even a PADI, NAUI, CMAS and the likes into a situation to talk about basic rights for the members? Actually, as far as PADI goes, we had an article here somewhere about the income distribution for PADI (I am sure other agencies are very alike). So, bottom line - you would be able, even if a lawsuit fails, to get enough attention to get you client aware. If the client is aware, he will not be diving at "suspect" places, so if they don't dive there - no biz for con artists, crooks and simple f**k up's plus better conditions for the pro's. Ergo we win?
|
|
|
Post by Sharki on Aug 11, 2005 5:48:11 GMT -5
wanted to check out this judge.org website. But again, I can not open the site. Problem of my connection or wrong address? ? As said before, think this could work out if the right people put effort in this project. There have to be a few locomotives who will do the major work and delegate other work to all the others. So it will be not easy but still I guess we have created here a forum where we have a lot of motivated people! ...and I'm still interested ;D
|
|
|
Post by tekmac on Aug 18, 2005 22:24:39 GMT -5
Ok, here is a short outline, what it needs to form a union! I am aware, thats by US laws. PADI is California based and therefore american. I don't claim that covers all the details, but gives you a basic idea what's involved. Want to go for it? I am in!! I am sure we will find pro bono lawyers to help us along. Don't want to discourage anybody here, just make pretty clear its not a joke project, but involves work (a lot) and dedication to the subject. A first step would be, to get all the media coverage possible, to make as much people aware of the project as possible!!! No base support - no chnce to change things.
Forming a Union
Phase 1--Forming a Union: There are two ways that workers can come together to form a union in their workplace.
The easiest and usually quickest way to gain union representation is through a "card check agreement." This is where the employer agrees not to interfere with workers’ choice to join a union. Once a majority of the employees fill out and sign authorization cards, they gain union representation.
If the employer doesn’t agree to a card check and a majority of workers have signed authorization cards, then workers must hold a union election. Filling out an authorization card at this point does not make you a member of the union, or require you to pay any dues, it just shows that you would like to have an election so you and your co-workers can decide whether or not to form a union.
Phase 2--Election: If your employer refuses a card check agreement, the union will send a petition to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) to conduct an election. You shouldn’t have to wait longer than 5 to 8 weeks once the NLRB has been contacted.
Since it is a secret ballot election, your boss will not know how you voted - just how many employees voted for union representation.
See: What to Expect From Your Employer for more information.
Phase 3--Negotiations: The next phase begins when you elect a group of your fellow workers to a negotiating committee.
The purpose of the negotiating committee is to assist professional union negotiators in getting a fair deal while negotiating your contract. The negotiating committee will survey the wants and needs of you and your co-workers to find out what the major concerns are and how best they could be solved through the contract.
Collective bargaining takes place between two groups - one composed of the negotiating committee and your union representative, and the other composed of representatives from management.
Usually after each collective bargaining session, the contract is returned to you and your fellow workers for discussion. Once the negotiating committee agrees that they have a good contract, they will bring it to their fellow co-workers for a final decision. Should the workers reject the contract, it will go back to the bargaining table for further negotiations until a contract is agreed upon. However, if a majority of employees approves the contract, the contract then goes into effect.
Phase 4--Membership: If you are in one of the states listed below you won’t automatically enjoy the benefits of being a union member after a contract has been agreed on. Instead contact one of your union representatives to sign-up.
'Right-to-Work' States
Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, South Dakota, North Dakota, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Idaho
|
|
|
Post by tekmac on Aug 18, 2005 22:28:19 GMT -5
How to Form a Union in Your Workplace Your right to join or form a union in your workplace is protected by federal law under the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA). Section 7 of the NLRA states: Employees shall have the right to self-organization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection, and shall also have the right to refrain from any or all such activities except to the extent that such right may be affected by an agreement requiring membership in a labor organization as a condition of employment as authorized in Section 8 (a)(3). This is known as your "Section 7 Rights." The following are answers to a few common questions people have about forming a union: What's the First Step? Contact the union of your choice. Unions have members and staff who have been through organizing drives and know how to help you build a strong union. You and your co-workers must build the union in your workplace, but the union you choose can provide essential help and support. For assistance in finding a union in Indiana contact the Indiana State AFL-CIO at: 317-632-9147 or www.inaflcio.orgWhat Happens Next? Once you have chosen a union and contacted them, you, your co-workers, and an experienced organizer will put together a plan to form a union at your workplace. Forming a new union is a step by step building process. The first step is to build a network of support throughout your workplace, and from this network form a committee. Your committee will lead the campaign to form your union. In order to build support for your union, your committee will work with union staff to reach out to and educate your co-workers about your goals and how the process works. Once it is determined that there is enough support, members of the committee will circulate "authorization cards" which employees fill out and sign to indicate that they want a union. This is part of a process that is required by law in order to have a union election. When a solid majority has stated that they want to have a union by signing authorization cards, you then file for an election. The National Labor Relations Board will schedule a date for an election in your workplace. A simple majority vote determines the outcome. If a majority votes for the union, the Labor Board will certify the results and the employer is then required by law to negotiate in good faith. How Will Management React? The employer may oppose their employees' efforts to organize a union. The employer may claim that a union is an outside third party. In fact, a union is an organization of employees in a workplace that have secured their legal right to negotiate wages, benefits, and terms and conditions of their employment. Management may no longer make unilateral decisions that affect their employees. Instead, they have to bargain with their employees on the terms and conditions of employment. During an organizing campaign, employers may bring in consultants who specialize in keeping workplaces union free. These people may be ideologically opposed to unions in the workplace and may promote the idea that an employee union will create a contentious environment. Of course, unions provide a means for employees to have a voice at work - giving workers a voice ensures that they feel valued as employees and provides avenues for the fair resolution of greivances. Many thousands of workers successfully organize unions every year. The decision whether to have a union is ultimately yours, not your employer's. What Rights do I Have When Forming a Union? You have an absolute right to form a union. Under Federal law your employer may not harass, intimidate, coerce, threaten or punish you for forming a union. The best protection against employers who violate these laws is to know your rights and work closely with union staff to organize intelligently. By sticking together with your co-workers and standing up for what is right, you can win your union.
|
|
|
Post by LSDeep on Aug 19, 2005 0:08:10 GMT -5
just another link to a msg board (regarding unions) in a different service sector all together. still stuff for thought! www.targetunion.org/node/14298
|
|
|
Post by Argo on Aug 21, 2005 13:53:49 GMT -5
OK! well I'm glad to see that at last we have a thread on my pet subject! Firstly we need to have someone say, "I am organising a union for dive Pro's" This in my opinion is the first step, its also the biggest. The problem as I see it is that the unions that are around at the moment do not cater to the needs of the dive Pro's in the recreational dive industry! I mentioned awhile ago that perhaps its possible to join the commercial dive unions as a sub section of their organisation. I will look into this and keep all informed. What we also need to ask is why do we need a union? This may sound like a stupid question, but without a concrete idea of what we want there is little chance of sucess. So first off I would like to propose that we all put on our thinking hats and take the time time to write down our wishes. An example of this would be; Standard minimum wage of the instructors, by this I also include AI's and DM's. Now many of the shop owners will say OK but my shop is in e.g a 3rd world country where the cost of living is lower than in a western country. To this the answer would be, sure but your instructors and customers are all coming from western countries and paying much the same price for a dive as in any other country. Therefore they, the Instrs, should get the same minimum wage as say in US or EU. Now these are just my first thoughts, this is no easy task that we are looking at but I believe that if we all work together for this it is possible. As I said I will be in contact with a couple of old friends from my commercial diving days and see if its possible to use their base organisation for our needs. If anybody has the wish or need to write to me personaly on this matter please contact me at argonautic@first.gr I look forward to seeing some really good posts here on this subject.................... so in the words of a good friend of mine, " Lets kick some ass!" THIS JUST CAME IN www.longstreath.com/unions.html
|
|
|
Post by tekmac on Aug 22, 2005 19:51:59 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_labor_lawJust another interesting link regarding unions. Seems to be pretty complex thing. Wonder if it is possible to find some lawyers specialized in union and labour law, preferred with diving experience or Instr ), to help the whole process along. Also in my opinion it should be US based, since the majority of cert agencies is based there.
|
|
|
Post by Argo on Aug 23, 2005 11:40:58 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_labor_lawJust another interesting link regarding unions. Seems to be pretty complex thing. Wonder if it is possible to find some lawyers specialized in union and labour law, preferred with diving experience or Instr ), to help the whole process along. Also in my opinion it should be US based, since the majority of cert agencies is based there. Problem with US based is that the labour laws are different e.g. PADI Int, PADI EU, PADI Asia and so on we need an International agency if its gonna work. Perhaps the best idea is to have it based somewhere and then have local offices? I would be prepared to look after the EU side of things BUT US is outside of my capabilities..... Argo
|
|
|
Post by manta on Sept 20, 2005 7:34:49 GMT -5
The thing that worries me about diving unions is the same as with say...auto makers unions. The prices will be raised to a point that it's too expensive to go diving because of the wages that have to be paid - the owners will have to pay a set fee but still want a profit. It's doubtful that they would want to have their profit eaten into, so they will raise prices to make up for the minimum wage. That's not to say that I'm not FOR it - but it's a very complex situitation that will have to show benefit for the operators as well as the working instructors. YMMV, as always
|
|
|
Post by LSDeep on Sept 20, 2005 11:49:03 GMT -5
The thing that worries me about diving unions is the same as with say...auto makers unions. The prices will be raised to a point that it's too expensive to go diving because of the wages that have to be paid - the owners will have to pay a set fee but still want a profit. It's doubtful that they would want to have their profit eaten into, so they will raise prices to make up for the minimum wage. That's not to say that I'm not FOR it - but it's a very complex situitation that will have to show benefit for the operators as well as the working instructors. YMMV, as always sure there will be major resistance from the majority of dc owners. as it was when unions first came up - see the partially very bloody fights around the founding time of the teamsters (we dont want that again). i cant really see prices going up, since that would result in less business and an even greater loss and i would think that the market and demand regulate that kind of automatically. that dc owners will not be happy about a decreased profit margin is foreseeable, tuff. but on the other hand, to come back to the oz example, i did not hear about rate increases. and i cant see why an instr should work for $500 a mth, pay all his/her fees to cert agencies, insurance etc. out of that to allow a dc maximum profits. now to look at the up-side for the dc, it is sure as hell there. by paying fair you will end up with highly motivated, dedicated staff and dont have to deal with slackers, cause you cant get better for your money. you can get rid still easily enough of "bad" staffmembers, because you dont have a problem to replace them with better trained staff, what increases your biz and overall safety of the operation. last not least, if you have happy staff, they will stay - that leads to less downtime and cost in training new staff. thats a bunch of benefits for the dc, that come to my mind without thinking - there are surely more if you start thinking about it. let me give you actually two examples of pay structures in a place (caribbean "3rd world" country) where i actually used to work - the course pricing, taxes and other biz cost are identical: dc 1 (where i actually worked as instr): instr $200/wk fix, $300 housing allowance, work permit paid, instr fees and liability + dan insurance paid, 2 meals a day free, 20% commission on courses (we talking of the whole course fee not the teaching part), additional 5% if it where courses you sold outside the biz (like during sundowners at your fav bar), $2 per certified diver you take out diving, nightdives $10 per diver. in high season we made partially $3000+ with minimum staff, since we had no interest that our boss hired more instr (he offered constantly), partially hefty premiums after busy month, when we really worked our butts off. i think that wraps up the main contract dc 2: $150/wk, $5 on nightdives, 15% commission on teaching fee and sh*tty staff lunch my boss never complained about making no money!!!
|
|
|
Post by sandmann on Sept 29, 2005 19:47:06 GMT -5
You might want to look into a teachers union. Basically we are teachers: diving, environmental education, etc... Teachers unions are well established in the states with pay scales, benefit packages, retirement, contract negotiations, etc... It would be easier to join a large well established union than to start one or join some sort of commercial divers union.
|
|
|
Post by aqua on Sept 30, 2005 5:35:07 GMT -5
hi everybody, i am new in business and new on this board, but i am thankful,that its exist.i worked till now for 3 bases and i only made very bad experiences, working 12-14 hours without breaks, bosses, who want you to work, but not to think, but smile the whole day.But i have not the courage to tell the names of these bases, because you always meet twice.also i know, that some of the owners have very good relationships to responsibles in padi/ssi etc. management, so i am worried about not getting a job anymore, because they`ll think i am a troublemaker. i think, that is a big problem for all of us and that makes it not easier. why i am writing this, is, i love the idea to be organized, but i dont think, that a union is the right way.everything will be more complicated, expensive and burocratic. i think the better way is to make more advertisment for this board and to encourage all pros to tell their good and bad experiences(i am the best example, of not telling..., but i work on it). the shopowners will realize, that their is a forum and hopefully the good ones will survive and the bad ones will not get employees. also i dont understand,that padi(or other organizations) doesnt make any undercovervisits in dc`s, because they promote all this themes in their education. i think, that the diveorganisations have a responsibility to watch over standards, ask for information about the education etc. , for what they get all this money?? Back to the idea of a union,one example for costs, if you can fly to egypt, hotel(all-incl.),flight and 10 dives all inclusive, for 800 euros what is the price for a dive? its nothing, so if costs will explode, in the end noone will earn. so far my thoughts about it, i will follwow this discussion with high interest and hope, that we will become stronger .... best regards blumaiden p.s. i think in e.u. your site is not so well known....
|
|
berniediver
Octopus
Always bubbles......never toubles!
Posts: 62
|
Post by berniediver on Sept 30, 2005 6:40:56 GMT -5
hi everybody, i am new in business and new on this board, but i am thankful,that its exist.i worked till now for 3 bases and i only made very bad experiences, working 12-14 hours without breaks, bosses, who want you to work, but not to think, but smile the whole day.But i have not the courage to tell the names of these bases, because you always meet twice.also i know, that some of the owners have very good relationships to responsibles in padi/ssi etc. management, so i am worried about not getting a job anymore, because they`ll think i am a troublemaker. i think, that is a big problem for all of us and that makes it not easier. why i am writing this, is, i love the idea to be organized, but i dont think, that a union is the right way.everything will be more complicated, expensive and burocratic. i think the better way is to make more advertisment for this board and to encourage all pros to tell their good and bad experiences(i am the best example, of not telling..., but i work on it). the shopowners will realize, that their is a forum and hopefully the good ones will survive and the bad ones will not get employees. also i dont understand,that padi(or other organizations) doesnt make any undercovervisits in dc`s, because they promote all this themes in their education. i think, that the diveorganisations have a responsibility to watch over standards, ask for information about the education etc. , for what they get all this money?? Back to the idea of a union,one example for costs, if you can fly to egypt, hotel(all-incl.),flight and 10 dives all inclusive, for 800 euros what is the price for a dive? its nothing, so if costs will explode, in the end noone will earn. so far my thoughts about it, i will follwow this discussion with high interest and hope, that we will become stronger .... best regards blumaiden p.s. i think in e.u. your site is not so well known.... Hey Blumaiden, Do NOT worry about a thing! First of all there is a thing called freedom of speech! Secondly your quite anonymous here! Third NO PADI Member has really a big hand or influence towards the Organisation itself. You get this told by the people to shut up! That´s how it is. Since I know about the board I reported every Divecenter I´ve seen in the most honest way. -and hey I´m still Instructor and I still don´t have any Quality Assurance in my back (last I heard of them was a Recognition of Excellence). And one of the last DC I was really bad writing about was a CD. See: Aquasub Mallorca Another two I left out to mention Scubafun Bayahibe - a big peace of Sh**t and Neptuno Juan Dolio who is working with "own" standards (manager is a RD) because the are well presented already at the board. The important thing is: You have to be honest and onlñy reportl what happend - nothing else. If those guys like to they can reply and prove you liying by anytime!!! So get at your Keyboard and start writing!!! This board lifes out of reports not out of readers!!! By the time we will track the F***ers all down. P.S.: Sorry for the bad language. Bad mood this morning
|
|
|
Post by Sharki on Sept 30, 2005 10:11:28 GMT -5
Very important!!!!!! Write what you have seen and experienced!!!! We will contact later the DC to give them a chance to defend themselves!!!!! For all us us this site provides excellent information!!! Share your experience!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Argo on Sept 30, 2005 12:01:37 GMT -5
Very important!!!!!! Write what you have seen and experienced!!!! We will contact later the DC to give them a chance to defend themselves!!!!! For all us us this site provides excellent information!!! Share your experience!!!!!! Yep can only second that
|
|