|
Post by Argo on Feb 17, 2006 3:32:10 GMT -5
OK, so now I'm back on my pet theme. Scuba Instructors rights, as we all know are at the moment, Non existent . I have been looking around at the idea of hanging ourselves onto one of the commercial diving Unions, to see if this made any sense. I found that in England there are two unions one is the maritime and transport union & the other is the Asso of Professional Divers. I spoke with them yesterday and they will be sending me a mail about what they offer and I will see if they can do anything for the Pros in the recreational diving area. If they cannot help us in this direction, as I've previously mentioned I am prepared to go it alone, at least in the EU. The EU for starters is our best bet as they have introduced EU governmental laws to regulate diving and as such have opened the door to include diving at work regulations and these include minimum pay scales, amongst other things. I am also in touch with the HSE (Health & Safety Exectutive) In UK to see where they stand on this...... Would anybody that is interested in helping please send me an email or PM me here on the forum. Please DO NOT reply to this post with your details...... Why you may ask? It a known fact that we (Pros) are not the only ones reading this forum, and I'm not talking shop owners here.......... Please send a short CV with your qualities and why you think you can help....... I feel, as I always have, that if we pull together it is possible to achieve something......... PS: The guy who is running the PDA has no association with the organizations he claimed to have!! NONE OFFICIAL THAT IS ............So that means it would be no sense to use them !!
|
|
|
Post by Argo on Feb 17, 2006 11:33:56 GMT -5
UPDATE:I have just got off the phone after a very long (and Expensive) call with the secretary of the ADC ( Roger 0' Kane at the Asso of Diving Contractors). I won't go into long details here. Basicly what he said was the best way to go about this is to do it ourselves. Its better to be a loud voice in a small group than a small voice in a large group.......... I agree!! They would love to have us in their organisation BUT all we would recieve is information about things happening in their world (Commercial Diving). For anybody that is interested check out their website..... www.adc-uk.info/Homepage%20ADC%20Homepage.phpThey have also been trying for a long time to get regulated minimum pay for their members BUT as soon as they try, they find that someone will go off and do the job cheaper.......... I think in our case our members would think twice about this as they would then lose the member benefits we will offer e.g. Legal assistance, help in situations beyond their control (Earthquakes, Hurricanes etc) and all of the other member benefits that we would supply. OK! So who wants to help me get this thing off the ground? Lets have some input here please !!
|
|
|
Post by BubbleGuy on Feb 22, 2006 5:20:57 GMT -5
The key sticking point for me is still the country to country variances.....wouldn't mind helping out though....are there any international unions to use as a guide? One that provides for EU, and US not to mention all the others?
|
|
|
Post by Argo on Feb 22, 2006 6:07:37 GMT -5
Obviously there are no International unions as labour laws differ from country to country.........Lets just get the thing of the ground in EU and then we see about US........
|
|
|
Post by LSDeep on Feb 24, 2006 8:51:48 GMT -5
just a little primer in terms of pay in the u.s. and territories FairPay Fact Sheet by Exemption Under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) Fact Sheet #17A: Exemption for Executive, Administrative, Professional, Computer & Outside Sales Employees Under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) This fact sheet provides general information on the exemption from minimum wage and overtime pay provided by Section 13(a)(1) of the Fair Labor Standards Act as defined by Regulations, 29 CFR Part 541. The FLSA requires that most employees in the United States be paid at least the federal minimum wage for all hours worked and overtime pay at time and one-half the regular rate of pay for all hours worked over 40 hours in a workweek. However, Section 13(a)(1) of the FLSA provides an exemption from both minimum wage and overtime pay for employees employed as bona fide executive, administrative, professional and outside sales employees. Section 13(a)(1) and Section 13(a)(17) also exempt certain computer employees. To qualify for exemption, employees generally must meet certain tests regarding their job duties and be paid on a salary basis at not less than $455 per week. Job titles do not determine exempt status. In order for an exemption to apply, an employee’s specific job duties and salary must meet all the requirements of the Department’s regulations. See other fact sheets in this series for more detailed information on the specific exemptions for executive, administrative, professional, computer, and outside sales employees, and for more information on the salary basis requirement. ..... Professional Exemption To qualify for the learned professional employee exemption, all of the following tests must be met: * The employee must be compensated on a salary or fee basis (as defined in the regulations) at a rate not less than $455 per week; * The employee’s primary duty must be the performance of work requiring advanced knowledge, defined as work which is predominantly intellectual in character and which includes work requiring the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment; * The advanced knowledge must be in a field of science or learning; and * The advanced knowledge must be customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction. ..... Other Laws & Collective Bargaining Agreements The FLSA provides minimum standards that may be exceeded, but cannot be waived or reduced. Employers must comply, for example, with any Federal, State or municipal laws, regulations or ordinances establishing a higher minimum wage or lower maximum workweek than those established under the FLSA. Similarly, employers may, on their own initiative or under a collective bargaining agreement, provide a higher wage, shorter workweek, or higher overtime premium than provided under the FLSA. While collective bargaining agreements cannot waive or reduce FLSA protections, nothing in the FLSA or the Part 541 regulation relieves employers from their contractual obligations under such bargaining agreements. Where to Obtain Additional Information The Department of Labor provides this information to enhance public access to information on its programs. This publication is for general information and is not to be considered in the same light as official statements of position contained in the regulations. For more information regarding the FLSA, visit the Wage and Hour Division’s Web site at www.wagehour.dol.gov or call our toll-free help line, available from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. in your time zone, at 1-866-4US-WAGE (1-866-487-9243). Copies of Wage and Hour publications also may be obtained from any office of the Wage and Hour Division. To locate the nearest Wage and Hour Division office, telephone the toll-free help line or visit our Web site for a complete listing of offices. When the state laws differ from the federal FLSA, an employer must comply with the standard most protective to employees. Links to your state labor department can be found at www.dol.gov/esa/contacts/state_of.htm. U.S. Department of Labor Frances Perkins Building 200 Constitution Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20210 1-866-4-USWAGE, TTY: 1-877-889-5627 www.dol.govU.S. Department of Labor Employment Standards Administration Wage and Hour Division
|
|
|
Post by glenns on Feb 24, 2006 10:10:01 GMT -5
HMMMMM, Sounds like another Government stab at the "paper reduction act" :-*HAHAHAHAHA
|
|
|
Post by Argo on Feb 26, 2006 9:00:27 GMT -5
HMMMMM, Sounds like another Government stab at the "paper reduction act" :-*HAHAHAHAHA Yep we all know about that............ Judging by the amount of answers that I have read on this thread.........seems as if no body is really intereseted anyway...... OK, foolish people go work for peanuts and be monkeys to the diving system.......make the others rich and yourselves bankrupt......... I once read somewhere: Instructors don't teach for the money, but mostly quit because of the lack of it!! How very true!
|
|
|
Post by LSDeep on Feb 27, 2006 22:04:26 GMT -5
may i modify that a bit? to: Good Instructors don't teach for the money, but mostly quit because of the lack of it!!
nope obviously we dont do it for the money - why the F*CK would be still doing it - exeptions granted?! doesnt matter what agency. but yep - youre rite, most ppl i know quit for the money involved! and i didnt try to get you down at any means - i just posted a "official government law" for the usa. what actually means, many ppl work below par! try to add up $5.15 an hour plus overtime compared to $455 a week plus what should be there also. like benefits, overtime as appropriate...... thats nowhere near to what many ppl have as contract in the states. the prob, beside people working under par, is the simple fact that there are no (mob or not) unions to set rules. yes many unions are "mob" -not all - but this ppl still get treated and paid better then scuba instructors! duh - wonder how thats being happen!
lets face it - you invested a "sh*tload" of money into your courses - yes there are well paid jobs out there - how many you had of them? i guess Argo is rite, some people you cant help and thats the problem, the handful that isnt happy should at least be able to get of their butt and TRY to change things!
but, maybe you are all overpaid and way to happy with the situation being!
|
|
|
Post by LSDeep on Feb 27, 2006 22:25:27 GMT -5
did that make sense in any way? kinda drunk here - but it doesnt matter does it? cause you will sit there and be happy with your $200 a week plus whatever and dont complain! does your pay actually allow you to have a decent vacation (if you get one - or if you work seasons) after paying your membershipfees, insurance, health and accident (if you even have that) rent and cost of living? do you think its normal to live "hand into mouth" as a "highly praised professional" ? wake up - yes, its a livestyle - but the way it is one that makes "other people" rich! dont get me wrong - there are decent jobs out there and decent shops to work with - but the majority is not! wake up, working for 6mth and be barely able to go home is not normal for a "professional"! you can have that working for McDonalds flipping burgers! you will earn more and have better benefits! it is actually really time to do something - if you dont want to be "fuc*ed" over and over again! anyway think about it. its hard to say it any more clear!
|
|
|
Post by bluewater on Mar 8, 2006 19:58:29 GMT -5
Yes, of course you're right. I'm not teaching at the moment myself, I got really tired of working like hell for little money for somebody who will put just more and more pressure on employees to get richer and richer.... Also got tired of seeing new instructors come with so much love and enthusiasm for diving, and how they get exploited.... I would like to help, tell me more! I'm a EU citizen, not living there right now, but I will go back this summer or earlier. I guess it's better to physically be there....
|
|
|
Post by instructorgirl on Mar 8, 2006 23:34:04 GMT -5
Instead of investing big money to open a union, why not invest to set up a fund to give donations to all the instructors that are treated bad or paid low? for example " Project Save the Instructors" ;-)
|
|
|
Post by Argo on Mar 9, 2006 3:03:10 GMT -5
Instead of investing big money to open a union, why not invest to set up a fund to give donations to all the instructors that are treated bad or paid low? for example " Project Save the Instructors" ;-) I take it that was a joke? We would need a lot more money to pay all the badly treated instructors.......It would cost more to do this than it would to open a union! This is also though in my mind that part of the member fees would / could go towards helping members that were stranded in a foreign country through no fault of their own, e.g Hurricanes and other natural disasters......This would be one of the benefits of being a member. Though not to be thought of as a form of insurance like some cert agencies are advertising their products....... The member fees would be used to petition and advertise the professional's plight, so that there would be active help to trying to resolve the working conditions of the professional instructor (I also include DM's & AI's in this). Those I do not include are those Instructors that 1. Do not do this for a living (Part timers) 2. Those instr's that are not Professionals. (Holiday Instructors working for 3 months, etc ). Argo
|
|
|
Post by buceotulum on Mar 9, 2006 23:19:10 GMT -5
Argo - you are 100% right - I agree that somebody has to speak up for those instrcutors who are being taken advantage of. For example there are some instructors who dont even have the money to buy food after they fly halfway around the world. I think the new Union should do something about that as well.
Maybe we could organize a food drive for those who dont have the means anymore after being tyrannized by those f****ing dive shop owners. For example the Union could issue food stamps, or meal tickets - maybe happy meals - for some of the better known food chains. Or we could have drivers deliver rations to their homes. These guys work their asses off, and after long hard days of work have NOTHING!
I can see no end to what this UNION could do .....
|
|
|
Post by Argo on Mar 10, 2006 6:53:06 GMT -5
Argo - you are 100% right - I agree that somebody has to speak up for those instrcutors who are being taken advantage of. For example there are some instructors who dont even have the money to buy food after they fly halfway around the world. I think the new Union should do something about that as well. Maybe we could organize a food drive for those who dont have the means anymore after being tyrannized by those f****ing dive shop owners. For example the Union could issue food stamps, or meal tickets - maybe happy meals - for some of the better known food chains. Or we could have drivers deliver rations to their homes. These guys work their asses off, and after long hard days of work have NOTHING! I can see no end to what this UNION could do ..... Am I to take that as a joke as well If there are Instr's out there that cannot eat because they are being paid so little then they should read this....... diveproinfo.proboards25.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1141239779
|
|
|
Post by glenns on Mar 10, 2006 9:41:53 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by scubadude on Mar 10, 2006 23:49:17 GMT -5
Argo, I think the idea is great and it's about time, that some full time professionals raised their voice together. I do not know if this will change things for me in Asia very soon, but if it can change anything anywhere, I think it's worth doing it. What I've heard so far sounds all reasonable and if nothing changes there you can count on me as a member at least.
Things mostly don't change from just complaining about them. You gotta do something about it! If you guys are cool with the way things are as they are, then you do not qualify to join the union, yet. If you do see a need, but you are lucky enough to have one of the rare good paid jobs in the industry with a proper contract and other benefits, then you should see an even greater need for that union. Or do you wanna go back and get paid commissions only?
|
|
Puma
Blenny
Posts: 7
|
Post by Puma on Mar 12, 2006 19:45:53 GMT -5
Hi! I think the three of you (Moderators) are quiet intelligent, if not above average... just the idea to put up a site like this one, tells us about it, no to mention your added experience and most surely spoken languages and other careers... however, I think that the most intelligent guy in the world can be headed towards a wrong end if guided by malicious ideas or simply wrong ones, like a fallacy would be. And yes, I am talking about a Union. So, I will try to express my ideas here and make them understandable, even tough I don't know if it will come out clean.
I am saying the Idea of a Union is just wrong. Why, because it's creation is based on untrue statements. Why? Well, what do you think of the guy that tries to take your new D9 by the force, and threatens you by pointing a gun to your head, just because he thinks i's not fair that you got one and he didn't? Well, it's the same behaviour the Unions promote. Forcing people (Dive Centers or Padi) to give away something just because they feel like it. What?? Am I gone crazy? Nope. And I don't have anything to do with any F@#$% non paying DC either. I just happen to have read a lot about the Austrian School of Economy (which I invite you to read).
So, in the market, the prices are set by offer and demand, that I am sure, you know, right? Well, a salary or wage, is just a special name for a price, namely the price for the work you do in one month. OK?
So, if it's a price, it should be set by the market itself, with no impositions. The idea of a Union, is like old Robin Hood, taking from the rich to give to the poor... Who said that was a great heroic action?? I don't know, it's called stealing where I come from.
So, if we said that a salary (price) should be set by the market, it would be something like the average between what people are willing to get for that month of work and what other people are willing to pay for the work done for them.
So, if I tell you I offer you 10 000 Bucks for one month, you would do it, right? (Don't take into account ethics and so on, let's say it's a decent DC). And you would surely prefer to do the same work for those 10 000, than for 1500, right? So, it's the same for the DC's, the prefer not to pay someone 10000 bucks a month, when there's plenty of asses out there willing to do it for free... right?
DC's are an industry, they have to look after their expenses, and they should as well, hire the best DM's and OWSI's they can, for less money (not sh*tty ones of course, but that's where the ethics come into play). So what would be the point in hiring someone great for 10000, when I can get someone equally great for 1500??
The real problem are not the DC's, but the DM's and OWSI's itself. To solve the problem, you should reeducate at least 3/4 of them, so that they wouldn't sell themselves cheap, and do a great job. If no one would be available to hire for such cheap wages (prices), the DC's would be wanting to pay more for Instructors and DM's, because they need them to survive. We are the f**king pillars of the Industry, and of course, we are also always holding all the weight of it and first in line in order to be f**ked over. But that's because we let it happen.
So, let's say we finally get ourselves our little Union and get to sign most, let's say 90%, of the Pro's in the world. What would we have achieved? Nothing! The rest of them would be looked by us as pariahs, and the DC's would still hire them in the blackmarket for lower prices (salaries). And what about all the new OWSI's?? They would also be easy targets for the DC's, and would take a while to convince them to join the Union and all our phylosophy. So there is the other problem, the big amount of people that is getting certified as DM's and OWSI's every day!!! We are just too many, so that's another big enemie of a high price (salary): abundance!
So prices tend to go higher when everybody wants something and that something is scarce. Think of the Playstation2 when it hit the market just before Christmas. You would have had to pay over $800 to get one, when retail was $300. Isn't this crazy? Well, it's just the (black)market.
The last thing is, that the market tends to find it's way, even if we try to manipulate it. So let's say we succeed in getting ourselves a minimum wage. How many DC's do you think would hire people in the blackmarket? And you have of course already deducted, that that wage would be surely a lot lower than the set salary no one is willing to pay. And that would be the exact same scenario with people not belonging to our Union. They would get hired cheaper. You don't believe me? Just look at how many DM's get hired? Not many, right? This is sh*tty, I know, but that's how it goes. The DC's use DMT's (Whatever DMT might be... to me, DMT is nothing but a fancy name for a RESCUE DIVER!!! I don't know who the F@#$% invented the DMT word, you are or are not certified, as PADI clearly states... so as of today I could work as a CDT, right? (mening Course Director in Training)) as guides, as Assistants to thier OWSI's, even when PADI does clearly state in our Instructor's Manuals, that only a certified assistant might be used for PADI courses or guiding certified divers, and they also clearly state what that is: a CERTIFIED DM or above. So, even if you get to build a Union, I don't think the panorama will change for us.
Our only hope would be that everybody would think as you 3, myself and many others participating in this forum. So, the only way towards achieving that goal is educating people! How? I still don't know, if I knew, I would be a freaking millionaire, would build the biggest DC in the world and would hire only people like you for fair wages!
And talking about fair, and just to finish: No, I don't think it's fair... but life isn't fair either... Thank you, God bless, and I hope I didn't make anyone angry or something... cheers, and happy diving!
|
|
|
Post by buceotulum on Mar 12, 2006 21:33:26 GMT -5
Great post from PUMA - thanks for the free market talk - a concept that seems to escape most people on this board (particularely the so called moderators) .... but what about "The Happy Meals" for those starving instructors? ?
|
|
|
Post by scubadude on Mar 12, 2006 23:05:38 GMT -5
What a posting Puma! Before I continue, let me assure you that I am not offended or whatever, but still like to comment on that. Like I said before, if you do not see any need for a union, then it's not for you. If you truly believe that free markets are the best invention since sliced bread - there's nothing wrong with that. But other people might believe in such ideas like unions, which seem to work in other businesses, too. Ever heard the saying: "The one who hadn't been a communist when he was young has no heart, but the one who is still a communist when he's old has no brains!"? Someone with a heart and brains might be interested in joining a union... In many places with a lot of DCs around there are things going like price agreements and without them, price wars would never stop, standards would drop and people would get killed on all sides. I know that price agreements are illegal in most countries, but somewhere below the surface they are still a common practice in almost all of them. So why not have a price agreement for the experienced scuba professionals. Most DCs will not be able to operate purely with free, disposable DM and Instructors only! Viva la revolution!
|
|
|
Post by instructorgirl on Mar 12, 2006 23:09:09 GMT -5
I still believe a donation fund for the bad treated indstructors could work? We just find out (per PADI Pro board) all instructor contacts and try to get a monthly 1 dollar donation from each one.We could even include divemasters! lets say 75% pay the dollar, that would make, well how many certified pros are there? 2 Million? that would be easily 1-1.5 million dollar a month or 12-15 million dollar a year to distribute, and to pay those people who do the administration and decide who gets the treat.we could set up a whole machinery with that, maybe get even bigger than PADI ;-) we would just have to organise it carefully, so it doesn't get corrupt in a way that few people alone get rich on that money...if this could be controlled and led by honest people such as argo,etc it could work! just my opinion.
or: we set up our own certification/training agency (soo many people do that already, like in europe have you realized, ?it's easy!!), set our own standards, produce learning materials,etc. and do it in a similar way than PADI, with the difference that we are an agency dedicated to protect the workers, or, act as an union and not to get rich. Imagine how much money PADI makes, well it would take a few years, but all pros would want to join us and quit PADI, because we would be working our favor!. And because our mission would not be to get rich (like PADI), but to protect the PRO, we could distribute the money to the workers...sounds great or am I too naive? great thinkers make great changes...
|
|